124 : GUEST: Nissa Noble on Complex Mother-Daughter Relationships

Loving your mom doesn’t automatically make the relationship safe, easy, or even tolerable. We sit down with Nissa Noble, founder and creator of Planet Gayle (@planetgayle), to talk about the reality so many adults carry quietly: complicated mother-daughter relationships where care, fear, resentment, loyalty, and grief all collide. If you’ve ever hung up the phone feeling drained, ashamed, or weirdly furious, you’re not alone and you’re not “bad.” 

We get into parentification and what it does to a child who learns to be the adult early, plus the long tail of hypervigilance, people pleasing, and the impulse to solve problems immediately. Nisse shares how Planet Gayle began as a creative practice to see her mom through a new lens, and we unpack the Jekyll-and-Hyde whiplash of an emotionally volatile parent. We also talk about the mind-bending part: when your mom can be pure-hearted and generous and still have behaviors that feel unsafe or emotionally abusive, and why “multiple things can be true” is a lifesaving reframe. 

You’ll leave with practical boundary ideas that don’t rely on your mom changing, including the power of pausing before you respond, designing requests that won’t set you up for disappointment, and letting your anger be information instead of evidence that something is wrong with you. We close with a gentler question that can shift everything: is there something strong or beautiful in you that you got from her, even if she never wins any mom-of-the-year awards? If this resonates, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find conversations like this.

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Transcript

Warm Welcome And Today’s Topic

Polly Mertens 0:08

Hey superstars, welcome back. Polly here, and I am delighted to be joined today by a dear friend of mine. Hello, Nissa. Hello. Welcome, welcome everyone. This is Nissa Noble, and I want to do a little intro. I'll give the personal side and then I'll give maybe your sort of pseudo-professional side because you're not just a dear friend of mine. Like you're like known out in the world, like big time. So we have an influencer in the house, y'all. So Nissa, we've known each other maybe like 10. Oh, let me just introduce the topic. Sorry, I'll just say that as well. So today we're gonna be talking about navigating complicated mother-daughter relationships. And this is my bestie in terms of going to someone when I got just I got hairballs in my relationship with my mom. And Nissa and I like we relate on this. So a couple, well, maybe like a month ago, I was like, well, you were giving me some great coaching and advice, and I said, We gotta have you on. And so Nissa is just so wonderful in terms of being so we've known each other probably 10 years. And at least. At least, yeah. Yeah, we've been in a mastermind group. Um, we started as lean-in, and now it's just women who love on each other and we play and we hang out and we support each other, and it's just a space of unconditional love and awesomeness. Um, and I'm just really great to call you one of my best friends. So that's it.

Nisse Noble 1:32

I feel very grateful to have you, Polly.

Polly Mertens 1:34

So that's our personal relationship. And this beauty, like when I think of one of the most creative and talented people I personally know in the world, uh yeah, it's you. Like, hands down, like Nyssa can generate beauty and creativity, and her mind is just gorgeous. She created, so she's on her fourth like startup, like she's a serial entrepreneur, has done everything from e-commerce and other things I don't even know about, but like your most recent adventures are into um, you know, supplementation, supplements, right? Mushroom supplements. You can talk about that if you'd like. And then the fun thing, I think, is out of your relationship with your mom, you created something called Planet Gale, which is an Instagram, TikTok. Like that's your channel, that's your voice, that's your creative outlet with you and your mom. And I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about that. And it's not just, oh yeah, there's just this channel that like girl was on like uh, you know, Good Morning America online and CBS interviewed her and her mom multiple times. So, like, not just you know, like, oh, but's and around, like you were creating a buzz. So tell us maybe tell me a little bit about Planet Gale and like where this started.

Nisse Noble 2:50

Yeah, I would love to. Um, and first of all, thanks for having me on, Polly. I feel and for the for the warm fuzzies, that feels good. Um, yeah, I'm uh I am on to my fourth founder adventure now. So it's a supplement call company. It's a supplement

Planet Gale And Aggressive Generosity

Nisse Noble 3:05

company called Third Nature. And I founded that after decades of burnout, and the goal is to help passionate people find their third nature, which we define as the state of flow when you're doing your thing. So uh that's one project. The other project that's very near and dear to my heart is Planet Gale. So in terms of plant of complicated mother-daughter relationships, that community was born out of my desire to learn how to love my mom. And I started it on TikTok, just creating videos as a way to see my mom differently, to process who she is without you know, all of the the all of my past experience with her. And it it went absolutely viral. There's over 700,000 Galians now, which is what we call them. They um are some of the most the kindest, weirdest, most lovable people in the world. It's a really amazing community, and yes, um it was the story was picked up by CBS News multiple times, Good Morning America Online, AARP. So it it definitely resonated, and I think at the core of that is what we're talking about today, which is complicated mother-daughter relationships, complicated parent-child relationships. So I think it's a it's a topic that a lot of people can relate to.

Polly Mertens 4:43

And I just want to insert here for if you haven't uh you know been to Planet Gale before, just uh like a little background from my you know outside in perspective, and I'm happy if you want to share more, but really we want to go into the meat of like this dynamic. And what I saw you doing with your mom is, you know, um you had lost your your dad, you know, a few years before that, and then your mom was, you know, becoming older, and then you guys you were starting to need to take care of her more, right? Just like you know, my mom and we've had conversations around that, you know, when we get this generation that your parents age, and then you're having way more interactions with your mom, you know, and it's one thing when your mom's like, okay, I see you, you know, kind of thing, and then you're either full-time caretaking or part-time caretaking or response the responsible family member because you have brothers and sisters, you know, and it's like, well, it's on you, right? And you had to relocate her and all these things, right? And you really dove in and got to know your mom more during those years, too. You know, I mean, well, you couldn't help it. I mean, like you're spending more time with her and stuff, but she had this um I wouldn't call it unique, but passionate, because some people, you know, you've got a lot of Galians that are like this, I think. She was very unusual, kind of like a a flower child, I would say, a little bit kind of came out of that jump.

Nisse Noble 6:00

Oh, not a little bit. She's a lot. She was weird. And full on weird. And it that is something that I that is a word that I embraced, that my mom embraced. And it's actually a fun topic on Planet Gale because there's a lot of people that get angry that I call my mom weird. And we see weird as a good thing on Planet Gale. Like it is you being authentic, it's you being different, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's not weird, isn't a bad word. So I think calling my mom weird is accurate.

Polly Mertens 6:36

Mm-hmm. Okay, so she was weird and this level of we'll call it a generous streak or something. Like she had this daily habit or routine of gifting. I don't know how you call it on Planet Gale, but that's right.

Nisse Noble 6:50

We call it aggressive generosity. Okay, aggressive generosity. It's got its own language. I'll put that in the dictionary, right? Yeah. What is that? It's aggressive because she won't take no for an answer. So you are going, you are going to get whatever she wants to give you, whether you want it or not. It's it is aggressive. She will she would run across the street to fill somebody's parking meter. She would, you know, go into the post office every day and give them muffins, whether they wanted the muffins or not. Guess what? If you want a muffin, you're gonna get 12 muffins. And there is, you know.

Polly Mertens 7:27

Yes.

Nisse Noble 7:27

It's just a a driving passion of hers.

Polly Mertens 7:32

Yeah. So that's so that I think is a little bit of where the story got picked up and and more. I mean, you're such a good storyteller. I mean, you knew helped paint the story of who your mom was. Like, I think part of that was your journey of seeing it through new lenses, and then you were able to s create that story and curate it in a way that was like how like you could have empathy and love and stop being, you know, like I at times still feel like the victim of, you know, the relationship and the complicatedness or whatever, but you flipped that and you were like, wow, you know, there's there's a good human here, right? And what's that story?

Nisse Noble 8:06

Right. Right, a hundred percent. I mean that tool was what I used. I and I wouldn't say it was that it created empathy or that it created um tolerance or however you want to describe it. I would say that it allowed me to embrace those feelings because I think when we have complex relationships with parents, it's not it's not that we don't feel those things. It's not that we don't love them, it's not that we don't have empathy for them, it's that the pain overrides it and we can't access it. And and so how do we find a place where feeling empathy for them, feeling love for them also feels safe to ourselves? And for me, it was about creating a different vantage point for my mom. And I did that through creating videos and seeing it as a movie or a TV show. I think when we make that, when we make that change in our viewpoint about it, then we remove ourselves from it. We can see the mom, you know, we can be in the drama or Yeah, we can see that you know, mom is has main character energy all on her own. Right? And sometimes she plays a part in our story and sometimes we play a part in hers, but maybe it's my artistic nature, but I do see things as movies, I see them as as stories and TV shows, and and so for me it was an easy way to flip the script a little bit so that I could see it differently.

Polly Mertens 9:59

Well, I just want to say that, and you know, I would watch, you know, through the TikToks and videos and stuff, like how you're telling your mom and stuff, and just our relationship, you and I, how helpful you were to me. And we I think we helped each other both directions at times, you know, just a a sounding board, and a lot of what I want to do in this conversation is just have a conversation about this. I would told you, you know, before we went on air how, you know, I had an eating disorder, you know, a food addiction for 20 years. And when I walked into a room where other people were talking about something that was so shameful and hidden for me, and this topic actually feels like that for me too, you know, and it's like, let's talk about this, you know, like you and I are not in the mom of the year award-winning mom category. We didn't hit that lottery or whatever you want to call it. Like we, you know, your mom's your mom and my mom was my mom, and they had some similarities, right? And so we could have someone to talk to about this that understood and is like, what do you do? And so let's talk about some of the things that you and I commonly like hit upon, and maybe like some of our you know, shared experience of like what it was growing, what it was like growing up with a mom like this, both as

Parentification And Growing Up Too Fast

Polly Mertens 11:10

a child and then as a plenty modern, you know, adult. Like, you know, it was it was different. One of the things that um as I dug into this, you know, and preparing for our calls, like you and I would both say that at some age the rule flipped and like you became the mom and she became the child, right? But do you remember when that was, or would would you agree with that?

Nisse Noble 11:30

Like Oh, yeah. I mean, I rem I remember from a very young age, my mom would often say, Let's bring Nissa along so that we have an adult. I was maybe eight.

unknown 11:46

Oh jeez.

Nisse Noble 11:48

So very early. Very early.

Polly Mertens 11:51

Yeah, so you were already like demonstrating that and and right, and like what child gets born and knows that, right? No, we we adapt, right? Like we see something, and so there's this, there's a phrase out there, and I just want to like put it into the conversation called parentification, and it's when the child becomes more like the caretaker in the relationship, right? Whether that's caretaking at an older age, and you and I I would say it was like more caretaking. Like my mom was alcoholic, she wasn't like a fall-down drunk at home or something, had to put her into bed, but you know, just looking after myself, right, was one thing, and I'm guessing you had some of that. And maybe there was some emotional caretaking for that person, right? Um, and maybe practically, you know, like doing your shopping or putting yourself on the school bus or whatever. Was that like how it was for you? And like you said, take you know, going along with them to make sure they didn't get in trouble or whatever, right?

Nisse Noble 12:41

Yeah, I mean, definitely. I remember packing my own lunches for kindergarten. I remember, you know, I moved out at 15 at very much on my own all the time. Uh, you know, I would describe my childhood as us kids were kind of like outside cats, you know, we had food and you could come in and you could like be have your needs cared for, but there just wasn't much in the way of emotional support or you know, my parents were around, but they weren't emotionally available.

Polly Mertens 13:17

Exactly. It's it's the thing, it's like we weren't abandoned. It wasn't like, oh, they were never. I mean, you know, my mom worked a lot, so like she wasn't there a lot, but like we weren't not like there was a roof over our head. There were there weren't like some of the dramatic, traumatic things that people really point to and say, like, that was child abuse or something like that. And that's not what we're saying here. It was like roof over our head, well educated. Your mom and your dad were super wicked bright, you know. My mom quite very smart. Yeah, yeah. But the emotional immaturity is is where it yeah. So now fast forward that, like, and that never changed, right? Like your dynamic with your mom, if it was like mine, like once it was that way, it was always that way, right?

Nisse Noble 13:59

Right.

Polly Mertens 14:00

Yeah, yeah.

Nisse Noble 14:02

So no, that that dynamic in my relationship with my mom never changed.

Polly Mertens 14:07

Yeah, yeah. So this is just like a hallmark. And like I said, there's no so we're calling this like complicated mother-daughter relationships. Um, and one of the phrases I was like looking up for this, and and I don't think we would call it this, was like, you know, toxic mom, you know, and that that throwing that word around isn't it. And I think we would just want to talk about some of the things that were present, you know, this reverse roles, if you will. I would say, and tell me this is it. So I'm gonna label it a couple of them or name a couple of them, like emotionally draining or unpredictable. Yeah, yeah. Um, makes everything about her, or it felt like there was a lot of like it roll the world revolves around her most times.

Nisse Noble 14:46

Yeah.

Polly Mertens 14:47

Yeah. Um, how about guilt tripping, controlling, or manipulative? I don't know that your mom was that much.

Nisse Noble 14:54

No, I I don't I don't think she was. I mean, she was um unwell and unstable, but her intention wasn't to do those things. However, in talking to some of my siblings, they did have some experiences with you know, controlling and which was new to me, right? Every kid has a different relationship, a different parent, even if it's the same parent.

unknown 15:20

Right.

Nisse Noble 15:20

Um, and so I think in in certain stages she was bipolar, which I had learned uh as an adult, that did manifest as that for some of my siblings, but it wasn't something that I experienced with her.

Polly Mertens 15:36

You didn't, yeah. I I would vote for and I still have it today, like the guild trip thing, like, oh you do this for me if you like cared about me, or oh, just this one time, or why aren't you, you know, like so I have I my mom never did that.

Nisse Noble 15:50

It was never that, which I think was um a unique thing. You know, I think that's a that it's to some degree is like a common thing, right? We hear about that, that moms will guilt trip you, and um especially my mom being Jewish, like apparently that's like a very you know specialized skill in a Jewish mom. And so I think it's actually pretty impressive that she didn't do that.

Polly Mertens 16:16

Yeah, yeah, right.

Nisse Noble 16:18

At least not to me.

Polly Mertens 16:19

Now, you know, your mom always seemed from the outside like you know, so kind and generous and things like that. Um for me, one of the things is like these interactions I would just feel worse after or drained, or just like like like why am I talking to this person, or like why am I spending time with this person? Did you how was your what was the degree of when you're around her how it was for you other than like all this aggressive generosity? Was there like anything else that was more like it rubbed you wrong other than that?

Nisse Noble 16:49

Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, my mom growing up, I was terrified of her. She was um she was terrifying, she would have these

Mood Swings And Feeling Unsafe

Nisse Noble 17:00

insane mood swings, she would scream and throw things, she was emotionally volatile, she was um she could be emotionally abusive in that state. So you kind of just learn to like stay away from my mom. And she her those moods of hers would control the entire the entire family, the entire household, the entire everything. And the interesting thing was that some of those dynamics started to change as she got older in the last you know, five or six years of her life, I guess eight years or so, while I was caring for her. And it was weird. Because I remember I I remember telling my therapist, I think when I was, I don't know, in my early twenties, like, I just wish that she was evil so that I could completely hate her. Right. Because she would she had this amazing side of her that was so pure and good hearted and generous and and then she also had this horrible side, and it was this Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing um that can be really traumatic because you start to question, was it really that bad? Did I really like did she do that? Maybe, maybe she isn't that bad, maybe she and you start to feel crazy.

unknown 18:38

Yeah.

Polly Mertens 18:39

You question yourself. And I guess I'm so glad you're bringing this up. I had forgotten just until you started telling me stories about your childhood in this, like my mom, I used to call her screaming fisherwoman. I don't know what that or my dad called her that. I forget, maybe he said that. And it was like the yelling in my household, like I just sort of blank it out. Like I remember at one point saying, What was my childhood? It was fighting, not me necessarily, but my parents, right? And just the yelling that would go on. And and that was largely my mom. I totally now that you say that, and it's like, oh, it feels like so distant because I don't see her that way anymore. You know, she just doesn't have a sparring partner, if you will. But yeah, and I love that you're saying that. Like this is part of that, like uncovering something that um I you know, we talk about like shining a light on it. Like I feel guilt for like, why don't I want to be around her? And then I just start processing and we're really trying to distinguish, you know, it's like women who have childbirth, they have other kids because they forget how painful it was, you know, like if they lose track of like that was really freaking painful, you know, don't put yourself in that situation again. But like you said, we sort of distance it from because we get enough nice interactions, right?

Nisse Noble 19:48

But because she feels unsafe.

unknown 19:51

Yeah.

Nisse Noble 19:52

Right? How can you trust someone that is that unpredictable, is that violent? Even if it doesn't you know, my mom never hit me. But the pain is still there. And I think one of the ways that I was able to find peace with it was to recognize that multiple things can be true at once. She can be multiple people, and one doesn't necessarily negate the other, and that people do change over their lifetime. But doesn't mean that what happened in the past didn't happen or that I don't have a right to feel the way that I do, but maybe I can make space for multiple truths.

Polly Mertens 20:44

Absolutely, absolutely. And and and stop kind of pointing the finger at us, like, is there something wrong? Like, am I missing something here? You know, like why, you know, instead of going, ah, like one of the things that we'll move to at the end of this is like, what do you do now? And it's like be honest with yourself. And I think that's where you saying, like, oh, this is the way she is, right? And that's the way she was, and you know, and not either pretending or shrinking the painful moments, you know. You know, and I I look at it like I was thinking of I was like, I don't know, trying to quantify it. I'm like 80% of the time I don't like the person she is, and 20%, and it's like, you know, and that's just how it is right now, you know. And it's like, do you want to spend time with somebody that 20% of the time you get a good parent, and then 20 the other 80% of the time you just yuck, you know? Varying levels of pain come from that. So I love what you said about the safety, you know, it's they're not safe to be around because you don't know who you're dealing with, right? Right.

Nisse Noble 21:43

So there is another there's another element there for me where I realized that a lot of the things that I found triggering about my mom were also the things that I didn't like about myself.

Polly Mertens 22:00

Some more.

Nisse Noble 22:01

So there was this realization of like,

Holding Multiple Truths At Once

Nisse Noble 22:05

hmm, okay, maybe if I can find some love and appreciation for those parts of me that I find less desirable, maybe I can extend that to her as well. And and that did help a lot. Like by me accepting those parts of myself and allowing her to be the way that she's gonna be, I I think that was a big part of a shift for her. I don't I don't know that my mom ever had somebody do that for her.

Polly Mertens 22:40

And so how did that how did that look? So you said you were loving a side of yourself that you maybe had negated or you know not wanted to love on. Yeah. And how did that show up with her?

Nisse Noble 22:53

Say that again?

Polly Mertens 22:54

Well, I think what I realized is that you know did you have angry sides of yourself maybe that you kind of like not really like her.

Nisse Noble 23:06

I mean I think I think it was less about the scary sides of her, right? Which I recognized was illness. I mean sometimes we carry things, and that was one of the things that she carried. And part of it was, you know, one of the things that her and I have in common is a very tender heart and an idea, you know, a a desire to to overdo and to um to care a little bit too much, and and it's it's a vulnerability. So that was one thing. Um that was a scary side of me, but I I don't think that that was the thing that I'm trying to remember like the the crux of it. Um I guess overarchingly it might be it would be like little things where I think she embodied a sense of authenticity and self-confidence that I didn't allow myself. That you know, she could take up space in the world and she could be her full and complete self. And even if that upset and hurt or bothered everybody around her. And that made me angry, and I think it was because I wanted that and I didn't feel like I was allowed I wasn't allowing myself to do it. And so that's just one example, but there were a lot of little things like that that I said, you know, I'm over here wishing that she would be somebody that she's not. And at the same time I'm wishing that she would appreciate me for who I am. So I was like, you know what, maybe that's that's maybe that's unfair. If I want her to accept me the way that I am, and the world to accept me the way that I am, in fact, it was really more about that because uh my mom's opinion of me, uh, you know, in that sense, like I always I've always known that my mom loves me. It's never been in question. Her love has not always been enough. But I've always known that she loved me and wanted me to be me. Um, but I if I'm wanting the world to accept me the way I I am, then I need to accept my mom the way that she is.

Polly Mertens 26:01

And I'm hearing another way of r saying it too, is like I you accepting you the way you are. Right. Like and and allowing yourself like like she you know, she's showing you how to just show up in a room and just be fully yourself, and you're not allowing yourself, and you're like, wow, maybe I can allow myself to fully show up in a room too. So yeah.

Nisse Noble 26:20

And by doing that, I I I think that that shifted the way that I showed up with her.

Speaker 2 26:27

So good, so good.

Nisse Noble 26:30

Now I feel in a lot of ways that I got lucky and that my mom shifted, right? I mean, I a lot of people, my mom had dementia, she had Alzheimer's, and a lot of folks that go through that experience personality changes. Um in my mom's case, truly, I think she and I got really lucky because the shift for her resulted in her becoming more childlike and more sweet.

Polly Mertens 27:03

I was gonna say like a softening. Yeah.

Nisse Noble 27:05

A gentle, a gentle side of her. She was less reactive, she was more loving, um, which is not the case for a lot of people.

Polly Mertens 27:14

Absolutely. No.

Nisse Noble 27:14

Um a lot of people have the have the opposite. No, to that doesn't mean that she was great all the time. I'm like, I am that doesn't mean that she didn't freak out or that she was wasn't very difficult at times. Um and she sundown for sure, but the incidence of her, you know, screaming and throwing things was very minimal. Um and even she noticed it, right? She was even noticing it. She was less reactive. Yeah. And, you know, I think that they say that a lot of times because of the dementia, that the normal pathways in the brain get kind of clogged. So you take these new pathways. I really feel like I got to see the part of my mom that was who she really is, underneath all of the the sickness and that like who she really was at her soul. That's that's what I feel. And I feel extremely lucky for that. And I want to very much put a big asterisk on that because I don't think that that's gonna be a lot of people's experiences.

unknown 28:26

Yeah, yeah.

Nisse Noble 28:27

Like you can do all the work you want on yourself, but that does not mean that your mom goes and do a damn thing. Totally. Okay, so this is my experience, but I do not want to create some kind of a fantasy for anyone that is that their mom is gonna change, because she probably will not.

Polly Mertens 28:49

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And and you never know. Like, who knows, right? Like, I'm so grateful, both my parents to their older, my mom is still alive, and that's one thing we're gonna talk about here briefly, is like, um, you know, I'm still navigating the relationship. Your mom passed away almost a year ago, and it's like you, you know, navigate it, and one of the things I want people to understand is like, I want to get to like some of the beautiful ways that you have been helping me continue to navigate this relationship that, you know, I'm 54 years old, and it's like I'm still growing up with this dynamic. And I I forget what I said before we aired. It was like I'm learning how to, you know, parent myself and take care of myself. And at this age, like, wow, it's still happening, you know. But I think I was wrapped in an old story and paradigm. And one of the things I just want to throw in before we move on, um, and it doesn't sound like you had it, but I definitely in the dynamic, because I just want to speak this so that you know, anybody else that is having this in their relationship, like, yeah, that happened is um guilt conditioning, right? And so it's like this condition guilt that it seems it's like uh a little bit of that passive aggressive, you know, like you know, when you start to recognize it, you're like, oh, that person's being passive aggressive, right? Like now I recognize when I'm being guilt conditioned by my mom, you know, like you should and this, and then like what shows up is that like wanting to be a good daughter, like wanting to be a good daughter, and like not what will people think, but like I'm a good person, you know, and like I want to treat people well and respectful and care about people. I don't want to like the amount of times I've gotten pissed off or angry or frustrated or resentful or whatever at my mom, and I'm like, I'm not this person. I'm like, you know, whatever. I'm more involved in this. Like I care for people. Like, why does this human bring this out side in me out, right? And it's like some of these dynamics look like guilt.

Caregiving Without Losing Yourself

Polly Mertens 30:40

But let's go to how do we adapt? Like, like what did, you know, like one thing is like you said, when we were little, you know, mine was like I can remember doing my own laundry. I mean, I rode like for an hour on city buses when I was like 12 to get to school across town, like huge, like undertake, like parents would never let their kids do today, right? Because we we adapted early. So, like, what are you know, I mean, a large one that people would say, oh, people pleasing, right? Like, oh, you know, because you've got this emotionally unstable person, bipolar. I would have said that with my mom, depression, bipolar, out throw in some alcoholism, you know, oh, how no, you know, um, like you've got this unstable uncertainty on your hands. You know, I don't know about you, like you never know who you're coming home to, or I never knew who like talking to, right? So, how did how what are some of the things that you recognize that you adapted, like people pleasing, or what else did you see?

Nisse Noble 31:35

Mm-hmm. I'm gonna write that down, but I'm gonna go back to something you said because I think it was it was really powerful. Um adapting. So I heard you say that my mom would make me really angry and that I'm not that person.

Polly Mertens 31:53

Oh, but I would I would that's my old story. That's the old story, right? Like I would get upset because my mom was whatever she was doing, right? Yeah. So like I need to take responsibility for she wouldn't make me. But like I would I would be enraged. I would be, I would flip into this other person that I didn't want to be because of like who I was who I was with, who I was sparring with. Um, I didn't couldn't just love on her, you know, just like for various reasons.

Nisse Noble 32:22

I just want to touch on that a little bit because I think that's what I was saying before when I was like, hey, there are these aspects of myself that I didn't love. And that's an example. You know, anger is not a emotion that I connect with very often, that I associate myself with very often, but it's a part of me. It's there. And if I tell myself that's not me, and I don't love that part of myself, because it's coming up to protect. That angry part of Polly is coming up to protect little baby Polly that didn't have someone to do that for her, that is angry that she had to take the bus on her own, that wants to protect you. And that is a powerful part of you. It's not a part to say, oh, that's not me, and I don't I don't believe or love that that's who I am. It's a it's an incredibly strong part of you that adapted in a way that you're like, okay, maybe I don't need to react in that way anymore.

Polly Mertens 33:27

What I'm hearing, what you're saying, is like, um, I probably if I pulled it back a couple of layers, is I'm actually angry at myself for being um like steamrolled or guilt tripped or whatever. It's like stand up for yourself is is sort of what I'm hearing. Is like I wouldn't put in boundaries or I wouldn't say no, or I would say yes when I meant no and things like that. And I was more angry at myself, too. You know, it's like, wait a minute, you know, like I'm angry because you're not doing this or whatever, but really it's probably like I'm not standing up for myself, too.

Nisse Noble 34:00

Yeah, there's definitely some of that. I um I think for me it was finding that unconditional love for myself no matter how I reacted. It's okay. It's okay if I get defensive, it's okay if I was mean to my mom. She came over, she dropped something off. I wasn't I was a bitch to her, okay? It's okay. I'm allowed to do that sometimes. I am allowed to respond in a way that I needed to in the moment, and I'm gonna trust that my body knows what it's doing. And I can still love myself. I can say, hey, I'd you know, may hey, maybe next time we try something different. But if I can still say, you know what, girl, you did your best and I love you and it's okay, that shift w made me able to show up so much differently in all of my relationships, but really for myself. Because it I for sure, the guilt wasn't the same as your mom's, in that my mom didn't tell me, oh, why, you know, you're making me feel so bad. Right, why didn't you call me? No, but I would feel terrible because she would want to come over and drop something off in the middle of you know, I'm doing something. She doesn't ask, she doesn't she doesn't she's giving me shit that I don't want that I now have to figure out what to do with. I feel guilty that I'm gonna throw it away. I feel guilty about being mean to her because she's trying to be nice to me, right? Um and I just thought, you know, maybe it's okay if I feel all those things. Like that's alright.

unknown 35:44

Yeah.

Nisse Noble 35:44

And maybe I need to give myself a little slack, like, because clearly I'm, you know, like and there's a lot of shit there. We gotta just let it happen. We gotta let we gotta let it come out. Um, and what are some small ways that I can it's not about adapting, but it for me it was more about what are some small ways that I can show up better for myself with my mom. Right? So what are what is a small thing? Doesn't it see a big thing? I don't have to create some big boundary and some new way of li like we always want to try to create like some I would find myself trying to come up with these complex systems, like okay, well if I schedule in an hour of mom time and I like really and it's like life doesn't do that. Yeah, it's not that especially not when you have a complex mom. She is not gonna slot into your schedule. Yeah, that ain't gonna happen.

Polly Mertens 36:47

Well that was some of what you were doing towards the end. So let's hit low. So let's hit upon like how d how did you towards maybe towards the end, we'll just call it because you know we were learning for many years, but you were getting it. Like you were, you know, having boundaries, you were managing your well-being, you were taking care of yourself, you were giving yourself more respect and like you said, and honoring how you were feeling and stuff like that. What what were some of the things that you started to do differently that you know you've learned through all of this? Like what what are some of the things that worked?

Nisse Noble 37:21

Um I decided that I was like I'm just gonna I'm gonna work with her. How can I make this work for me? She's gonna do what she's gonna do. How can I make that work for me? Not like how can I adapt to make her happy, but how can I channel whatever it is that she wants to do or however she wants to show up or whatever she wants to do in her life? How can I align with that? Now that's not always possible, right? Your caregiving for her, I had to take her to her doctor's appointments, I had to do all of those things, but even still, the doctor calls and is like, oh, your mom's got an infection on her toe, she needs to come in and see this podiatrist and a specialist, and you gotta do this and that and the other thing. And you know, we can and I we can get her in tomorrow at this time, or it's gonna be a month from now. And tomorrow at this time, right? This is just tomorrow at this time, I have a very important meeting and I'm already drained. I'm gonna go, you know what? We're gonna go a month from now. Because mom's infected toe, even though I feel bad, guess what? It's probably been infected for months. She's gonna be okay, right? And that's that was the difference of going, like, okay, how I have to care for myself first. So what where is it gonna give? And the give would be mom's getting her toe looked out in a month. Yeah, you know, or it would be mom wanted to, mom always wanted to go to the store every day and get me something. Like, okay, well, I would pick a specific thing, and this was the thing that I wanted. And I would be very clear though, because mom if I said to get X, she could get anything like adjacent to X, right? It wasn't like it wasn't always gonna get exactly X, right? If I said I wanted peanut butter, I might get cashew butter. I might get like I might get something that's in the realm, but it's not even close. Might be on the shelf or if that's gonna piss you off, and you know that she's gonna get you don't pretend that she's gonna know, oh, I need to tell her again that it's exactly this peanut butter. Don't do that. Don't set yourself up for failure. Know that that she's gonna extend to whatever space she's gonna extend to and go, like, how could I make that work for me? How could it be a surprise if I'm like, is there an item that this is just one example, but I think it's a good one because you know it hits diet and all of these different things. Because it would piss you off to get something that you're like, I clearly don't eat that. My mom should know that I don't, right? Whatever.

unknown 40:08

Yeah.

Nisse Noble 40:09

Or however it's gonna trigger you, but I would say, okay, what is a thing or a category of things that if she got me anything even in the realm, I would be like, this is a fun surprise and it would be cool. So I would pick that thing. Yeah, okay. And that's the example of going like, all right, this is going to happen anyway. You are not going to tame the tornado.

Polly Mertens 40:34

Yeah, and I love it's like shifting something in you that you know, um, it's not expecting that person to change and then you feel better. It's like, I want to feel better, so I'm going to shift something. I'm going to shift how like shift how I approach this, shift, you know, like, nope, we're not going to do it now, you know, make it work with for you, like take care of your needs as well, like both, both and, right?

Nisse Noble 40:58

And I want to preface that with I made a decision that I wanted to care for my mom. I wanted to have a relationship with her. I made that conscious choice. I, you know, sometimes we're in between a rock and a hard place, and both options sucked, right? It was like either I have to reprioritize my life so I can prioritize mom, or I get to live with the guilt of not doing that. Yeah. So I right, like sometimes our options suck. But I think I made the conscious choice to go, okay, I'm making this choice. And that really did help me to go, you know what? Like, I I chose this. This is something that I wanted. My my siblings didn't choose to do it, and I understand why. My like I said, my mom was pretty horrible to us growing up. So we, you know, had all the reason to maybe not show up for her because she didn't necessarily show up for us the way that we wanted. She tried. Don't get me wrong. It wasn't like there was lack of effort, but um knowing that I wanted to do that, knowing that I wanted to have her in my life, I tried to find ways that would make it positive for me. I love it, I love it. Not for her, really. I mean it so happened that it worked that way, but I think so many of us think like, oh, okay, well then I'm just gonna tell mom to be this way so that it works for me. And that's not mom is gonna be mom.

Polly Mertens 42:35

Yeah, yeah. And and I love it. You're just like, I started working with who she is, and like that's she's just gonna be that way, and stop like thinking that you know, no, and that's the same thing. That's no control. Intimate relationships as well. It's like, okay, if you want that intimate partner, it was like, oh, if he would just stand on his head a little bit more and do these other things and whatever.

Nisse Noble 42:54

It's like yeah, I feel like, or if I bend over backwards and I contort myself, and you're like, don't no. No.

Polly Mertens 43:01

Yeah, yeah. Don't do that. All right. So, you know, what else towards the end were you doing that like gave you peace? Or um, you know, or because I know you were, you know, health was, you know, she's struggling, she's got health challenges, you've discovered some health challenges along that same path. You guys were kind of in a parallel, you're nurture nourishing your own health. How did you keep your nervous system okay? Or take, you know, one of them's like, Yep, we're not doing it now because you like some little boundaries, it sounds like were there. Uh I I think at one point I asked you, and it was like I remember you saying some of the advice, one of the pieces of advice you gave me was like you don't have to answer her messages right away. Or whenever whenever you want. Like that was like freaking breathtaking for me. I was like, okay.

Nisse Noble 43:49

Oh, that's huge. It is a huge thing. So as somebody that grew up, so you talked about how did we adapt growing up with moms like this? So So I think a lot of the ways that we adapt when we're kids, at least is a common way. A lot of people have different, everybody is different. But we become hyper-vigilant, anxious.

unknown 44:12

Yeah.

Nisse Noble 44:13

We are always on alert. Something bad is going to happen. And some of the coping mechanisms with that is to like when problem arises, solve it right away. Because the the unknown is so scary and painful. Yeah. Yeah. And what that can manifest into is people pleasing and or just being very responsible and available. Because it feels safer. Because we're in control. We'd like the control. So at least this is for me.

The Pause That Protects Your Nervous System

Nisse Noble 44:45

And so with my mom, if she would text me or call me, the implication was it felt safer to just respond to it in the moment. Because then I'm taking care of it. I'm making it, fixing it. I'm, you know, I know what it is. I've got it under control. What I realized though is that I was doing two things. One, I was teaching her that I was always available to to solve any any problem. And I also was um not letting her figure it out on her own. So I think that this is good advice in it really in any scenario at work, in any people that we work with, is to just give a little space. Have a little pause. If mom would text or call me, I would wait. She leaves a voicemail, I'd listen to it. Nine times out of ten, it would be some, oh my god, the world is ending, and my computer won't turn on, and oh my god, and the the F bombs would be flying, she'd be freaking out, she'd be like, You need to call me back right now. I can't, and it's just okay.

Polly Mertens 46:01

Yeah. I was I wasn't. Yeah.

Nisse Noble 46:04

Oh, I have the voicemails. I can play the I saved them. I can play them for you. They are like, what the fuck with this fucking thing? And okay, all right. So you just let it happen. You wait at least an hour. Okay. Then reach back out. Whether whether you want to reach out by text or however available you want to be. But my thing would be like, I'd wait a little bit. Nine times out of ten, she'd be like, oh, it's fine. Right? Or she would find somebody else. That's why I moved her into senior living where she had people that were there. That's why I moved her so that she could have and she would have those people that would support her, right? Brilliant. Deal with her problems.

Polly Mertens 46:48

Brilliant.

Nisse Noble 46:49

What they get paid to do. Let the people, let the professionals do their jobs.

Polly Mertens 46:53

The catastrophizing that I get, and I'm just like, it's not that big a deal, you know, like you know, and and like you said, and like and it and I don't know about you, but it feels like and it's very, you know, it's that emotional immaturity. It's just like a child. Like if a child, you know, doesn't get its way or doesn't want to put its shoes on to go to school, like, you know, and it's like, yeah, that's what we're that's what we're witnessing in a 70, 80-year-old woman instead of a three or four-year-old little girl. It's like it's just the same person, just older, and it's hard to go.

Nisse Noble 47:28

Yeah, it's emotional dysregulation. Yeah, you know, I think what we're witnessing in those moments is we're witnessing, we are witnessing their inner child, but never regulated. So we have to remember, imagine that that's the person that's trying to care for a child, that was trying to care for us. And if they can't, if they can't regulate for themselves, if they can't show up for themselves, how are they supposed to do that for us? And I I think that that was a huge aha for me was recognizing that my mom really did her best. That was the best that she could do, like truly and genuinely, that was the best that she could show up for me and for my siblings and for everyone around her. And so when I would see those outbursts, I would over time it shifted to empathy because I was like, wow, that's gotta be really hard to live like that. You know, I don't think she people choose that.

Speaker 3 48:30

Right, right.

Nisse Noble 48:31

I don't think uh maybe some people do, but in in my case, I don't think so. No, that doesn't mean that we're not sad or that we didn't wish that they could have been somebody else.

unknown 48:43

Yeah.

Nisse Noble 48:44

There's a lot of grief there.

Polly Mertens 48:46

Dude, that and there's a whole another episode that on like unpacking like the expectations, both of them and of us, you know, like like you were pointing out for me, like my expectations of being this like infallible person who never gets angry or something like that.

Nisse Noble 49:00

Right.

Polly Mertens 49:00

It's like, no. Like, it's okay to get angry, you know, and but you know, I I label it as like this is somebody I'm supposed to care about. Why am I so angry at this person? You know. Um just recognizing like, okay, that's what happened, right? And yeah, um, were there were there places where you had trouble instilling boundaries with her? You know, and maybe give me an example, like what was one like that sounds like a little silent one, like you just wouldn't you didn't tell her, like, oh hey mom, when you have these freak out moments, I'm just not gonna call you for an hour back, right? But you would Oh, right, right, right.

Nisse Noble 49:35

Yeah, did I try so there were a few things. I mean, like I said, as she got a bit older, um, and maybe the dementia was taking place, like she was a lot easier to work with. Um, what were some boundaries that I put into place? Um well, one thing, so this there was a turning point and with her and she would have these tantrums, right? She would go nonlinear, as she would say. That was her phrase. And uh and typically what I would do is I would just uh flee. Right? So we've got like fight or flight, I would flee, I would like, okay, let's just gonna let her do her thing, I'm gonna give her her space. And at one point I thought, you know, and this is the that's the only two interactions I ever saw with when my mom would have these episodes my entire life. It was either flee, which is what my dad would do, or fight, which is what my siblings would do with her. But there's an another option. And I was like, hmm, okay, let's try something different. Like and one of the things that she would do would be in one of Sorry, it's loud downstairs. She'd be one of these episodes, is that she would uh yell at herself and she would say how stupid she is and she was so mad at herself, right? Because it would clearly it came from a place of not liking herself and she wasn't happy about it. So at one point when she was doing that, I said I I made her look me like I put my face in front of her face and I said, You're not allowed to call yourself stupid in front of me. Because I said, if you're stupid, then I'm half stupid. Um, I said, Mom, stop calling yourself stupid. You're not allowed to do that in front of me. And she like her whole world changed, like her whole demeanor changed, and I was like, You're not stupid, don't talk to yourself like that. She's never before.

unknown 51:58

Yeah.

Nisse Noble 51:58

I don't know that anybody had done it. And she like actually settled down. And it was this shift that I saw in her. And it was since that moment, and I continued to do it. I was like, you're not allowed to talk about yourself that way in front of me. I just wouldn't, that was a boundary that I set. I was like, you can't, I I don't want to hear you talking about yourself that way. So that was one. I mean, I would create different things. Like I she used to love to just show up out of the blue. Um, I told her that she has to set a time with me before she just shows up. Towards the end, I mean, I just let her show up whenever she wanted. It's I mean, she's just about it drifted. And that's the thing with boundaries. You can decide, you can put them up and you can take them away. And I decided to take it away because I was like, you know what, any any day could be the last day. So if she wants to show up, yeah. I'm gonna make space in my life for that. Yeah. Um I I did. I you know, I said a a few things, but I think more than anything with her, it was me adapting, you know.

Polly Mertens 53:12

Totally. Yeah. I mean, you've got this, like you said, uh I think one of my favorite parts of what you said is like she sh not however you said it was like she was good being the the prime actor in the movie. You know, she was good playing the prime actor in her movie and largely other people's movies, sometimes the subordinate, but largely prime. And uh I oh yeah, I can relate to that a lot.

Nisse Noble 53:33

Just full main character.

Polly Mertens 53:35

Main character, there you go.

unknown 53:37

Right.

Polly Mertens 53:37

And it just goes, That's mom. Like she's just gonna be on stage when she's in the room, and like I'll take her mine out to you know, restaurants and stuff. And it's like the the main actor has just arrived. Did you guys notice? You know, like okay, yeah, whatever the set was going on and anybody else's acting movie. Nope. We just doesn't matter.

Nisse Noble 53:55

Yeah. She is Celine Dion, and that that you know what, like Celine is in the building, and that we gotta just I I mean, I think that it's we wouldn't imagine that Celine Dion would not show up that way. So why do we expect that our moms are gonna show up differently?

Polly Mertens 54:16

You know what? And we we are okay with Celine, and then she has handlers and people that help her get to the front of the line and stuff, and then our moms, like my mom has literally I've seen her like cut in line, and I'm like, what are you doing?

Nisse Noble 54:27

You know, you know, yeah. Oh, for sure. She just like she and but she, you know, she's she is all up in it. And yeah, the and it in some time sometimes though, when you can remove yourself from it for a second, you can recognize that you're like, this is kind of impressive.

unknown 54:47

Yeah.

Nisse Noble 54:47

Like this woman is taking up some space.

Polly Mertens 54:50

Exactly. The self-assuredness, agency, like like I'm like I, yeah, this is not the world was all around me, but I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying.

Nisse Noble 55:00

Well, and it can show up in us, like when we do act out the way that they do, right? Whether it's in anger or taking up a lot of space or ruffling people's feathers around us or cutting in the proverbial line because we think that our needs matter, it can make us feel like, oh, I don't want to be like my mom. That's where that feeling when I was saying earlier of these things that I didn't like about myself that come from her. I think those are good examples. But maybe instead we go, well, those can be good things. Why is it all wrapped up in, you know, can we pick and choose? Can we create our own? Oh, it's great.

Polly Mertens 55:40

It's great. Like I said, like I think this could like do have you seen those episodes where the guys talk for like three hours? I'm like, you and I could probably do this. It's probably two plus hour on this. So I'm like, oh, I think I was trying to make it like in an hour and respect your time because you're working and whatnot. But I think we need like a another doozy, another good one.

Nisse Noble 55:58

Yeah.

Polly Mertens 55:59

And I sit down. So let's see. So maybe so I've got this whole part on like shoulding, like I should be close to my mom, I should enjoy time. And then we just say like um we can like set ourselves free. And like the takeaway is like it's okay to feel this way, and boundaries are healthy, and so like we can just kind of wrap.

Nisse Noble 56:18

Yeah, cool. Is that cool? Yeah, I think that sounds good.

Polly Mertens 56:21

Okay. So I know it's like uh around a lot of this, uh, when I think of like the work of Brene Brown and shoulding on ourselves, right? And like falling into the should trap and that guilt, you know, the shame and the guilt of like, I should be close

Letting Go Of The Should Trap

Polly Mertens 56:35

to my mom, I should enjoy spending time with her, and I should want more of a relationship, right? Like, um, what how did you reframe that? How did you evolve? Like, how did that change from like uh this guilt of like I should want to get closer, but not wanting to, or something? What were some of the things that you did or one thing that you did?

Nisse Noble 56:53

Well, yeah, and I definitely can relate to that. I mean, there's so much of it. Um I think what I did that was helpful was not trying to think of it all at once and the full relationship. I think sometimes we can get so grandiose and try to, at least for me, try to come up with well, this is the answer or this is the way that I'm gonna show up that's gonna solve it all. Um, I just and it sounds cliche, but really just thinking about one day at a time and what way would feel good showing up today with my mom.

Polly Mertens 57:38

It's like be in the present and do your best right now.

Nisse Noble 57:42

Like just today. And maybe today that means like I can't with her.

unknown 57:49

Yeah.

Nisse Noble 57:50

Maybe today that means I'm mad at her and I don't want to see her, I don't want to talk to her. That's okay, let's do that. And then tomorrow we can check in again. And what I found for myself was that it it did change day to day. And some days it was. Like I very much wanted to see her and spend time with her, and then sometimes I was like, absolutely not.

Polly Mertens 58:14

I love that because it's like it's okay, and what it I I know this seems like at 54 I'm saying this, but it's like it gives yourself permission to say, No, I I don't want to hang out with you, you know, like no, I don't want to see you, talk to you, solve your problem, hear about your bullshit, whatever. Like, nope, I just you know, and that reminds me of like um there's like we abandon ourselves to go be with that person, right? You know, like like, oh, their needs are are more important than ours. And it's like when I say, you know, um uh yes, I'll see you even when I don't want to, or I'll pick up the phone, like, oh, she's called six times, you know, that kind of a thing. It's like, no, like somebody else called me. I'd be like, nope, not talking to you, right? So I would abandon myself and go be like, oh, what do you need and how can I care for you and stuff. And so it's like for her. Yeah.

Nisse Noble 58:59

And especially when we do that over and over again, I think, yeah, we're we're we're a betraying our own trust. And I think the reason for me at least when I would when I would answer that call or when I would abandon myself for her, the reason why is because I felt like, well, I don't want to be that person, or I don't that's not the relationship that I want to have with her. But that's what I'm saying about just take it one day at a time. Because our relationship isn't all one thing or all it's not it's not like that, it changes. And so I think that the one day at a time helped me to maintain both. You know, some days you can have a really a really nice time with her, and other days you is yeah, and that one day can go on for a long time and then it can change again. So it it allowed for flexibility in the relationship.

Polly Mertens 1:00:04

I think the last thing I'll just say and we'll wrap up is like um, you know, it's surprising how upsetting it was for me, us, or I'm I'll say speak it from my first person, is like like whatever the experience, like we'd have this interaction and it wouldn't go well. And that person would she'd be like not very faced for very long, right? You know, like we would hold on to way more for way longer than they do. It's like how but it's maybe that emotional immaturity is like next, you know, playtime or off to the next thing, or oh, go worry about this now, or whatever. So, you know what? Just let it go too. We just gotta let that shit let that shit go. So For sure. Yeah, they're not holding on to it.

unknown 1:00:42

I know.

Polly Mertens 1:00:43

And we're like, why do I can't I don't want to talk to you because of yesterday? And they're like, What? What happened yesterday? I was okay, I came to your house. What? You know? Yeah. All right. What's a what's a one thing, Ness, that anything that you've shared or haven't shared yet that you you think about that somebody who's, you know, an adult woman or or man um who's got a mom that doesn't win the Betty Crocker of the Year Best Mom award, what's one thing that like really helped you in how to navigate this? Something that you might want to leave them with.

One Final Reframe And Where To Find Nissa

Nisse Noble 1:01:20

I would say so if I were talking to someone who had a complex relationship with their mom, she wasn't the way that they wished that she would be, I would say that sucks. And is there something amazing about you that you got from her? Because the non-Betty Crockers of the world also have a lot to give. They've also got a lot of unique aspects that we can write off as eccentricities or faults.

Polly Mertens 1:02:05

So true.

Nisse Noble 1:02:06

But I'm sure if you dig deep enough, there is something that is a part of yourself that you're proud of that came from them or that you learned from them.

Polly Mertens 1:02:20

Thank you. So I feel like you're speaking to me, not just everyone, but to me too. So I'll take that.

Nisse Noble 1:02:25

And I can't wait to re-listen to this to uh hear all of your wisdom and all our both of our wisdom. There's a lot in here.

Polly Mertens 1:02:33

There's a lot here. That's really sweet. So thank you, my dear, for being on with us. And how can people find you? Tell us what the the I I I think we said it in the beginning, but just make sure that we let people know where to find you.

Nisse Noble 1:02:46

Yeah, uh, you can find me at Planet Gail. So that's Planet Gail G-A-Y-L-E or Nissa Noble on social media, N-I-S-S-E, or at my new company, Third Nature.

unknown 1:03:00

Third Nature.

Polly Mertens 1:03:01

Awesome. Well, I have a feeling there's more uh coming, so this might be a to be continued. That would be lovely to have more time to unpack more with you. So thank you for being our guest today and for sharing all of this. And I hope that you know, if you're listening to this, that you either heard something in this story or in my story, whether your mom is still alive or she's passed, or something in here is touch something about, you know, like like it's okay, like you telling me some things that were okay with how I was reacting and how I was being. I hope in this you you felt some camaraderie and some seeing this, um, because that was really my goal and our goal with sharing this. So thank you for being a part of this conversation with us. And remember, my beautiful people and team awesome out there, how your life feels is more important than how it looks. And every day is your opportunity to find your awesome.