127: Serotonin Dopamine-Happiness Hormones

Dopamine isn’t your brain’s “treat.” It’s your brain’s chase signal, and once you see that clearly, a lot of modern life makes uncomfortable sense. We talk through why dopamine spikes show up in everything from social media and gambling-style algorithms to shopping, porn, vacation planning, and signing up for big challenges and why the hit often lives in the anticipation, not the payoff. That same chemistry can fuel ambition, learning, and courage, but it can also carve deep compulsive loops when the reward is uncertain and always one swipe away. 

Then we shift to what regulation actually looks like. We share practical ways to stabilize dopamine and reduce the crash: consistent exercise (not necessarily extreme), lowering inflammation with better nutrition, using morning light to support circadian rhythm and cortisol timing, and building daily social connection through small “micro-moments” with real humans. We also lean on a trauma-informed lens: the better question isn’t “why the addiction,” but “why the pain,” and we explore how noticing urges early can keep a pattern from becoming your normal. 

Serotonin rounds out the picture as the steadying force behind mood, satiety, bonding, and sleep rhythms, with a big spotlight on gut health since most serotonin is produced in the gut. We close with some of the most underrated tools for nervous system regulation: pets, nature, awe, and wide-open views that bring you back to rest-and-digest when life gets chaotic. If this conversation helps, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s stuck in a loop, and leave a review. What habit will you try first?

Follow Coach Polly @getbusythriving and Coach Sam @thesamanthapruitt 

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Transcript

Welcome And The Hormone Hype

Polly Mertens 0:07

Hey superstars, welcome back. Polly here and Sam Pruitt. What's up, beautiful humans? Let's go. Yo.

Samantha Pruitt 0:15

Yeah. Speaking of let's go, we're talking about some let's go hormones, right? Like like generally all well, and some go get it hormones. Some go get it.

Polly Mertens 0:25

Yeah, we need to like clear up some technicality. Cause like, you know, we were thinking about calling this like the happiness drugs and you know, happiness chemicals. And it's really a little bit of fine-tuning. So the two things that we're mostly going to talk about today, which is let the cat out of the bag, are our good buddy serotonin and our good buddy dopamine, right? Totally. Yeah. Totally.

Samantha Pruitt 0:43

And why are we talking about these quote unquote feel-good hormones? Why? Because everybody is in the freaking pursuit of this, you know, chasing it.

Polly Mertens 0:54

Or and hijacked in some ways by it, you know. Yeah. Hijacked in the pursuit of it. And just know, like these are naturally occurring chemicals that are, you know, I was sharing with you that I watched this video in preparation for this about the tie-in with a woman studying behavior in animals who have this, you know, similar chemicals, right? The dopamine serotonin and how they drive them one direction, you know, out of the herd or towards the herd, or towards food or away from being chased, things like that. So guess what? We're we're purely animals here, right? And so we evolved. Speak for yourself, ladies. We evolved similarly, you might say. We don't want to, you know, however you view that evolution. Um, but it's like those drugs are still doing what they're doing by design to keep this human um form alive, if you will, right?

Samantha Pruitt 1:46

Well, let's call them hormones. Let's not call them drugs because we don't want people to think of it like that. It's they're they're neurotransmitters or neuromodulators, which is a chemical um compound within the body. We'll just put them under the classification of hormones. Most people know that they have an endocrine system. I don't know. Do they? I hope they do. I hope you do. Okay. Um, anyway, your body produces hormones. Yeah. And all of these hormones, there's so many. That's why we're just talking about two today, because they're like the, you know, let's get happy sort of vibe. Um, they get confused. There's so many things in the body.

Polly Mertens 2:27

Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, so they don't just make us feel good, they shape motivation, mood, they form sleep, appetite, they create they, you know, uh they help us in learning, um, like what to go for, what not to go for, stress tolerance, social behavior, pain sensitivity, emotional regulation. I mean, it's like, yes, these puppies are like lifting heavy over here, you know.

Samantha Pruitt 2:51

These are the two we're gonna talk about today.

Polly Mertens 2:53

Yeah, kind of workhorses for sure.

Samantha Pruitt 2:55

Yeah. And people who are nerds like us who might want to know more about how their body works, should, you know, read up on this stuff and watch some videos on it, etc., and like start to understand. Um, the body in so many ways is so complex. I mean, frankly, it's just miraculous that I'm even standing here today functioning. Right. But and any of us, any of us humans who happen to be alive in this time are so incredibly lucky sons of bitches, right? But it's like also very simple because once you understand like core foundational health elements,

Dopamine Is The Pursuit Engine

Samantha Pruitt 3:35

these systems will work, they will work, right? But they can very easily become dysfunctional and diseased when you are not doing core foundational health principles, right? Exactly. You know, and we will get into giving them some solutions for each of these, but let's kind of pick them apart. Let's start with the go get it. Yeah, yeah, hormone called dopamine. First of all, why is it called dope? Whoa, yo, y'all, dope. And where did the slang word dope come from? Did it come from dopamine? Oh, I that's dope. Dang, I didn't look all this up. I didn't know these questions were gonna be happening today. Oh my god, you know, I'm just gonna speculate. Well go get it hormone. So it's motivation, yeah, reward. I mean, motivation, everybody struggles with that. Reward, learning. So many people are struggling with learning. Learning is challenging in this really high stimulus, stressful world that we're all living in now. So, this is one of those hormones that helps with that. It's not the pursuit, it's not pleasure. So it's not like a hormone that just gives us automatically pleasure, it's pursuit.

Polly Mertens 4:45

Yeah, if you think of it that way. It's misunderstood often. And I didn't miss it, I didn't, I thought it was like the reward you got for going for something. It's like, oh, a dopamine hit, people would say. And it's like actually, more dopamine is hit in the pursuit of that, right? Like exactly going for something. It drives the pursuit. Yeah, exactly.

Samantha Pruitt 5:04

Yeah, it drives the pursuit and it balances pleasure and pain. So it's not all pleasure, FYI, it's not all shits and giggles, it's balances, and it helps you to regulate those things.

Polly Mertens 5:15

Yeah, and I think you know, I was that like I was referencing that one gal's video about how chemicals and animals, and she was talking about how dopamine is what has a gazelle in the wild leave the pack because it could get more food if it's out on its own, but you know, and and it's like, oh, it's like, oh, there's a reward out there, go for it, you know, like it gets it to go pursue something, and the reward of like getting it is like so it, you know, it it survives, it gets more food, it thrives, you know, the the species, you know, could live or whatever.

Samantha Pruitt 5:45

So yeah, but it takes the risk of being eaten by a lion. Exactly. And as it gains the success of the reward, we'll call it the food. Yeah, dopamine shuts off, it's it's not doing anything until the next chase, the next pursuit. Yes, right. So again, motivation to be fed, motivation to be uh safe, motivation to win, motivation to succeed, all of the things that we call motivation. So dopamine feeds motivation, it's really a critical hormone to motivation as a whole. To get up and go. Yeah.

Polly Mertens 6:20

Get up and go, yo. And what I got from her um explanation was like the learning happens when that gazelle goes out, finds a patch of food or something in the in the wild, um, and it doesn't get eaten. It's like, oh, that was a good strategy, right? So it learns it's okay, or it learned, right? So, you know, these these chemicals often are um, you know, they create behaviors in us, right? Good, bad, or otherwise, right? So we can talk about you know some of the addictive neural roofs. Yes, yes. So the learning happens when it goes, oh, that that was worth the reward, you know, that reward was worth the food, the dopamine hit, the chemicals or whatever rewarded that animal for striking out and you know, doing that, if you will. So yeah.

Samantha Pruitt 7:06

So the problem with that is at the root of addiction and addictive compulsive behaviors is also dopamine. Yeah, totally dope in a bad way. Okay, so this is what also feeds that dysregulation or that vicious cycle of that compulsive or addictive behavior

Addiction Loops And Uncertainty Rewards

Samantha Pruitt 7:25

because you got the dopamine to go do the chase, pursuit of whatever drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling. I could go on all freaking day long about social media, you know. Um, and then you do the thing. Dopamine's shut off at that point. You do the thing, and then there's some small reward. Micro, sometimes there isn't even a reward. Plenty of people doing drugs, alcohol, gambling. There's a negative consequence, right? Yeah, but that groove is so deep that they continue to do that behavior with the hopes that the next one might feel good because at one time they did win the slot machine, or they did have a good high, or they did have great sex with a random stranger, or whatever the hell the thing is they're doing.

Polly Mertens 8:10

Well, you know, and so slot machines and social media, they're the same algorithm, right? So it's the same operating under the same theory is give them enough, you know, reward to keep them coming back thinking. And dopamine actually thrives on that uncertainty, like that anticipation, also, right? So it's like, oh, I might get a great video, might get a, you know, like something I like, something funny, feel good, whatever, right? Um, same thing with slot machines, like, oh, you could win, you know, so you just keep and they reward you enough with the yummy cat video or whatever it is, or a couple of quarters out of the machine or something like that.

Samantha Pruitt 8:45

Or likes on your post or whatever bullshit. Exactly, exactly.

Polly Mertens 8:49

Yeah, so it's that anticipation, right? And you know, it's funny, those are very so. I want to give one that was popping in my mind as you were starting to explain this. That is like, oh fuck, that's probably it too.

Samantha Pruitt 9:01

So like we're so human, Polly. What are we being so human like?

Polly Mertens 9:05

I was like, oh dang, that's probably it too, which which I like and I appreciate this. So a couple uh so we can all see the let's call it the uh hamster wheel of social media or the hamster wheel of a um um gambling addiction, right? One I think is a little bit less, so I just started to notice like me planning vacations, or like I bought a I bought a flight the other night. It's like oh the vacation started. Oh, you got yeah, the trip, you know, so like that dopamine, I like I got the anticipation of something by taking a step, taking an action, even like researching about something, like the anticipation of going somewhere, right? That's my I'm like, oh wow, and I you know where else I saw it for myself is signing up for races. Well, hell yeah, let me tell you what I did yesterday. Okay, okay, I started.

Samantha Pruitt 9:54

Well, this is confessional. So we are so dopamine savages. Dopamine savage. Okay, let's just be honest. And so the pursuit, and you and I are freaking triple type A pursuiters. Okay, we don't just like half-ass this pursuit thing, we're the fucking lions in the jungle people. We are like on the savannah. And some people might call it healthy pursuits, some people might call it a little insanity, but right? Well, that's it's finding the balance, which we'll get into that, but okay, yeah. What did I do yesterday? Uh so I've been planning this John Muir Trail hike I'm doing this summer. So talk about dopamine. Anytime I sit down to work on that project, that adventure, that expedition. Oh, yeah. I am high as a kite. I am like, wow, couldn't be more fun to like look at the latest gear and the latest tent. Literally, I have a brand new tent that's not been opened yet that I'm going to be returning because a better one just came out.

Polly Mertens 10:59

And how do I know? Because I was doing the rest of the. And you bought one like last year. What the hell? This is my third tent.

Samantha Pruitt 11:05

Oh no. This is my third tent in a calendar year. This is classic, but that's a classic example. Okay. And then um, I made a decision a couple weeks ago that I was not gonna do my 100 miler in the fall because I just cannot get my value volume up half of nice. But a new race came out this week that I've put my eye on doing the Arizona Trail, which is actually on my bucket list to do the Arizona Trail. Yeah, and a brand new race came out a hundred miler on the Arizona Trail, and you bet your sweet ass. I was like, going, going to I did all the research. It's next spring, and I planned it. Okay, so I did do some logical thinking and some grounded realization, but I was like, yes.

Polly Mertens 11:52

Well, so yeah, just let the dopamine, so yeah, okay, here's the other thing that I'll from all my years of addiction studies. Yeah, we gotta talk about addiction a little bit. So um imagine uh there's this big thing in the world of bulimia, and you can I think picture this. Uh there might be similarly in alcohol, but in bulimia we call it the bulimia urge, right? It's like an urge to eat, urge to overeat, right? Some people, it's because they're starving themselves, you know, whatever. Or it's just like they're, you know, and we love Dr. Cabor Monte, maybe we'll bring him in, but it's like you're trying to shift from something else, right? So you get this urge to eat and it drives you, right, to go do stuff. And so it's like you just you you you're just like compelled, right? So the chemical is triggered, right? So it's like like that dopamine or whatever. So the hypothalamus releases these chemicals. And if you can last, the I remember working with a therapist one time and she was like max 90 seconds. It's like a wave coming through, right? If you can imagine like a slow wave coming through uh the ocean or towards your body, and like if you don't get crazy, if you rise above it, you can just ride that wave. You like, oh my god, another race! Oh my god, you know, and then in 90 seconds, guess what? It like it goes, it pitters out, right? If we don't latch on to it and ride with it and take it wherever it takes us, into the kitchen or into the like pressing and buying, and like I'm going to the race, you know. And then we get the totally.

Samantha Pruitt 13:20

I mean, I don't act on these things right away. I haven't bought the tent and all the, you know, I haven't like done the things, but I'm in the cycle of like now I'm gonna review that if that's an intellectual move or is it an emotional move? So to me, how I do it is I ride the wave and I get excited and curious, yeah, and then I let the wave go back, right? And then I start to let it sort of mull around in my brain and also in my body. Like, does that feel right? Does that seem like feel like a good move? Does that make sense? Is that really logical? Like, I start to sort of analyze the reality of it. What would it require? How much is it gonna cost? Blah, blah, blah. You know, all the things. I don't just go, fuck yeah, I gotta have it, like people on Amazon or whatever they're doing, or buying products on social media, shopping on oh, that just can't, I must need that. I'm I I must, you know what I mean? So that's the gambler sort of mindset. Yeah, and we're not saying that you know, doing fun shit is not a good idea. We're all about it, right? But understanding why your brain responds the way it responds and body is actually a physiological response, also,

Dopamine In Vacations And Race Signups

Samantha Pruitt 14:30

especially something so primal, like you talked about um food addiction. Like food is such a primal need, right? So that is a whole other slew of things going on besides dopamine, obviously. Totally. But if you think about, and same with sex, I'm sure, and there's other things that are just like so primal in nature that riding those waves can be more complex than just, you know, am I gonna buy the latest and greatest tennis shoe that just came out or the newest tent or whatever the hell the thing is. You know, I don't need those to survive.

Polly Mertens 15:03

Yeah, and what I want to just throw in here, and we'll talk about later, is the antithesis of this. And so these are like pleasure stimulant, right? Like we're in the pursuit of a pleasure to avoid some sort of pain. Not say that you were not to say you were in pain before you saw that idea of the race. You were just like, pleasure, you know, woo-hoo, you know. And so, like for me with the addiction with the eating disorder, it was like some sort of stress or not feeling good about something, or there was something going on in my body to avoid that pain. It was like, oh, quick pleasure, like like fast food, you know, it was like boom, you know, just so those pleasure moments, whatever they are, if it's gambling, social media, whatever, it's it's triggering the pleasure hormone or you know, triggering the pleasure reward, not nourishment, which we'll talk about later. So that's what's happening when you get sort of hijacked by those chemicals, if you will. So they're getting us.

Samantha Pruitt 15:54

We gotta regulate this stuff. Let's get into a little bit how people can regulate it. Well, I'm not just saying this because this is my thing, but exercise. Exercise is the real thing. You know what?

Polly Mertens 16:07

Before we do it, wait, I do want to say one more thing. So um there's there's there's a little pen I need to put in here. I almost forgot about it. And so, because I was working with a guy um one time who had like porn addiction, you know, and and what I learned a lot about that and how that just degrades your sexual um appetite, right? Because you're you've so overstimulated with something that's so unreal, right? And the same with social media or whatever. So know that, like, if you overstimulate yourself, you get these big dopamine spikes, especially in social media, it actually just creates this lower lull in your life that like nothing feels very good. So, like, like for this one gentleman I was treating, it was like the the porn, you know, watching a lot of porn, you know, it was stimulating at the time, and then you try and have sex with his wife, and it was just like dull, right? And just like this dullness. So it's like you have to abstain from those reward systems to get your body back, body brain back down to a normal. And it could feel a little like dull and lifeless for a while. So we're gonna talk about some things to do that, but just know if you've over-stimulated by like too much X, whatever, you know, me with the food and stuff like that, like just like normal living, if you will, going back to a norm, could feel just dull, you know, it's like novelty, you know, or it's not like lack of novelty and stuff.

Samantha Pruitt 17:28

Well, it's not a running joke, it's definitely a reality and probably also a running joke in the ultra-running world that lots of people who found ultra-running are ex-addicts. It's pretty commonplace, actually. Yeah. And addicts of all different, you know, shapes, sizes, and types and stuff like that, because they're they were getting such a high, or they were getting such a dopamine and then a high and then a crash, right? And so when they changed, made different lifestyle choices for themselves to move away from addiction and were looking for things to satiate these needs or these desires or this feeling of euphoria, et cetera, et cetera. Um, it got replaced in many instances by not just running an exercise. A lot of us do that, but like the extreme cases of running an exercise, you know, where they're doing really wild things. For sure. I'm kind of about those wild things. So I'm not, you know, you're kind of wonderful.

Polly Mertens 18:26

So what I would just say is like dopamine regulation is what we're talking about. It's not maximization, you know, because maximization is.

Samantha Pruitt 18:32

And more is not better. More is not better. Exactly. Actually, more is a problematic.

Polly Mertens 18:39

For sure.

Samantha Pruitt 18:39

So, all right, let's talk about how do we regulate all this stuff.

Polly Mertens 18:42

So, how do we natural exercise?

Samantha Pruitt 18:47

Yeah. Okay. Exercise um also produces not just dopamine, which we're talking about, but serotonin, which we'll talk about next, uh, neoepinephrine, and BDNF, which is a growth hormone. So it does a lot of shit. Okay. Exercise is literally, I cannot say it enough. It's impossible for me to deliver a loud enough message. Yeah. Yeah. Like to the benefits of exercise. And it doesn't need to be anything extreme. Okay. It is small, regular, consistent doses of moving your body ideally out in nature, but whatever. I'll take whatever you're willing to do, people, okay? Because exercise does naturally provide this and these feelings. I was just out trail

Riding The Urge Wave

Samantha Pruitt 19:40

running this morning, and dude, I was so in flow. Yes, it's hot as hell here. So I probably had a little bit of minor heat exhaustion. No, it's hot. But I'm out in nature, I'm on a trail, I'm moving my body through space. Literally, it's effortless. I'm just like floating above the trail, effortlessly moving my body because I love it so much, but I have trained my dopamine system and all these other cascade of hormones I talked about to get into that groove relatively quickly and to respond quickly and to take me along into the flow. Not every workout's like that. Some are horrible and miserable. And I was in the gym yesterday and there was no flow going on at all. I was like, get in, do some heavy shit and get the hell out. Okay. But today, there it was. It was like that cascade immediately kicked in, and I was like, in it. I could have just kept going. What I was like, I gotta get back, I gotta eat, I gotta eat, you know. But like it's one of those things where you don't want to come home. And that it that is possible and available for anybody. It really is. No, it doesn't matter what level of fitness you have.

Polly Mertens 20:51

Yeah, I mean, you know, I love what you're saying about the outdoor because um there's several things, but you can do yoga in your chair or in your home or stretching or walking, you know. I mean, like 30 minutes of walking, 45 minutes of walking a day is just remarkable. So many, so many things. So yeah, exercise just like number one big plus in lots of lots of ways. Yeah.

Samantha Pruitt 21:15

Mm-hmm. Um, anti-inflammatory diet. So you should monitor the inflammation in your body because that will actually block dopamine. So I thought that was kind of an interesting learning for me. I do understand inflammation and how it works in the body and why it's not good, but I was like, oh, it also disrupts the natural biochemicals and hormones in my body who are trying to do their job. Yeah. And instead, I am, you know, dropping a bunch of inflammation in by poor nutrition or poor lifestyle choices. So that was a that was an interesting one.

Polly Mertens 21:48

Yeah. Well, you know, I've been on the I've been the gut guru for four years now. I'm just like gut, gut, like everything points to the gut nervous system regulation, you know, like what. Well being the genesis of disease, like I'm like, I'm um it's gut, get you, and then natural light and sleep and all those, all those yummy things. I mean that's the next one.

Samantha Pruitt 22:11

There's morning light specifically, morning light specifically, because of your cortisol timing and your natural response of cortisol rather than driving it all day and all night long, like letting the body get into that morning light. Oh, it's time for me to have my cortisol spike and kick in.

Polly Mertens 22:29

So I'll just say more specifically because I loved that episode. There's a fantastic, like two-hour plus episode that Andrew Huberman, Huberman Lab has done on the power of morning light. So if you haven't seen it, listen to it. You know, we just give kudos to that. Um, it's all about it. And so what he recommends is watch the sunset and watch the sunrise. That's like the simplest way to say it is like watch a sunrise and watch a sunset every day. That's his little take on it. Um, but yeah, so when you say morning light, it's like not just like sitting in your house and going, oh, it's light outside. It's like get it in the eyeballs because he's he's the eye doctor, you know. It's like let the there's something about it, you know, he's got all the science behind it. It's freaking amazing.

Samantha Pruitt 23:08

Well, the something about it is the communication to your brain and your vagus nerve, which talks to your gut, and it's all, hey yo, what are we doing now? What are we doing now, right? And circating again. This is the go-get it hormone. So, like, if you think about that being one more way to activate the go-get it hormone. Social connection, this is just a beautiful one that we're all about, obviously. But not just like feeling not feeling um isolated and lonely, but like going, because that's obvious, right? There are really poor health outcomes, physical health outcomes, and mental health outcomes with feeling lonely and isolated. So if that is the case, then you need to get busy asking for help and finding community and getting support. Yeah. But like what I am am so into, which you totally know, which is like these random acts of constant out in the world, micro moments, we'll call them micro moments, with other humans, mostly strangers, not always, but a lot of the time, totally with strangers. And I freaking love that. You know, it can be a little thing at the gym for a couple minutes or the coffee shop or whatever, and it's those small moments of connection with people, you know, your barista or where whatever your daily routine looks like um that gives you that. It actually triggers dopamine. I was saying serotonin.

Polly Mertens 24:34

Well, serotonin, too, because serotonin is what draws you to be with serotonin and oxytocin.

Samantha Pruitt 24:39

Yeah, yeah. And oxytocin. So there's three chemicals in that thing, but that little uh motivation spike, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I thought, well, that's super interesting. Uh well, I'm basically a crack addict now.

Polly Mertens 24:53

I was gonna say, you're like, I gotta have my coffee. I gotta get out of here. I gotta go, I gotta go see, I gotta go see the people. The people are out there. I gotta go see my temper. Why do you think I took that damn job at REI?

Samantha Pruitt 25:05

I wouldn't have been working at REI Pi Time. Where's people? I gotta go talk to people. Um and they're talking about adventures and cool shit like hello gear. Hello, hello, you all need me.

Polly Mertens 25:16

The addict is here, just letting you know you guys are feeding my dopamine addiction. I need for the outdoors. I love you all.

Samantha Pruitt 25:23

Do totally, and they find me in the store. I mean, like they gravitate toward me because they can probably smell the dopamine. It probably is like a pheromone, it gives off an odor.

Polly Mertens 25:33

They're like, Are you up for an adventure? Oh my god, come here. Like tell me about it. You get the serotonin from talking to them, and then the dopamine from all of that.

Samantha Pruitt 25:41

It is, it totally feels so yummy. It is a yumminess. It's a reward to them. It's a reward. Yeah, and again, anybody can do this. Yeah, yeah. And anybody can do this, right?

Polly Mertens 25:54

And I I I think, you know, we talked earlier about that wave that can lead to the addiction, right? And you're writing this wave of like, oh my god, you know, I've got to sign up for that bigger thing, or I've got to, you know, click the thing, or the the slot addiction or the food addiction or whatever, right? And there's healthy,

Practical Dopamine Regulation Basics

Polly Mertens 26:10

healthy ways that it does reinforce behaviors that are natural and normal, like you were talking about. It's like, oh my god, being with people, right? Which is like more of more of that. So it's it's it's serving, it's just when it gets either in the dopamine loop and you're in addiction or you're like over-emphasizing something that's becoming unhealthy, right?

Samantha Pruitt 26:31

Yeah, and you mentioned Dr. Gabor Amate a few minutes ago, uh freaking legend. If people don't know who he is, please, please start watching his videos and reading his books. He's not going to be with us forever, he's in his 80s now, but he's absolutely brilliant in the area of addiction and trauma and all of these things that we talk about on the show. I mean, I'm totally obsessed with this man. But he says, you know, examine the pain, right? If you are being driven to seek that pleasure in some way, shape, or form, you need to understand, like you were saying earlier, about well, there's something pushing you towards that, that seeking, that pursuit, and be honest about, you know, I'm pursuing that thing because of what? What is the pain? So rather than focusing on the addictive behavior and the cycle of it, be willing to look at the root of that. What is motivating me and driving me to keep doing this thing that I know is not good for me? What fill in the blank?

Polly Mertens 27:34

Yeah, I'll just give his quote. He's on another podcast and he said something like the you know, his line is like, the question is not why the addiction, but why the pain that's causing the addiction? Like, why why what is the pain that you're avoiding? What is the thing that's m driving you to seek this pay pleasure short-term, whatever it is, right? So, and and examine that. Like, there's your that's that's the unexamined life is you know, you're you're diluting yourself, right? So you're finding yourself compulsively after something, you know, and I find I remember um, you know, so I remember coaching this one gal with her food addiction years ago, and she would tell me like she had this two o'clock um thing where she went down to this routine. So she worked in like some office building with lots, I think, you know, office building with lots of um cubicles and on a computer and whatever. And she had this routine, I think it was like two o'clock, get up, and I think I forget there was a snack room in the floor, she'd go downstairs or whatever. So she'd go like, you know, binge all these foods and stuff. And what we started when we unpacked it is she was isolated and lonely. She wasn't so hungry, she was isolated and lonely. So I was like, well, why don't you get up and go talk to somebody in a neighboring cubicle? Like instead of like going down whatever to the snack room. Totally transformed. Totally, she was just she was lonely and isolated, right? And so looking at the the source of that addiction for her was isolation, loneliness, not connecting, if you will. And so just, you know, if you've got a behavior, a pattern, a routine that you're in that you know isn't serving you, look at what what's the pain that you're maybe avoiding. And it may not feel like a pain, like you know, like a thorn in your side. It could be just sort of a numbing or a like a dull or uh, you know, like a pushes you away, you know, or just sort of like a sinking feeling. So whatever that pain is. Um yeah, just looking at that, pointing to it.

Samantha Pruitt 29:31

Well, a lot of people will just say, oh, it's because I'm anxious or I'm depressed or I'm this. They're just you know, it might be like it's like saying there's one color of white paint, you know. And behind the white painting, we're just gonna paint it all white. Oh, what color white? We got to go a few more layers into that. And that can be uncomfortable. And sometimes you need to do that with somebody, okay, in a non-judgmental way, whether it be a friend or a family member or a coach or whatever. A lot of times the friends and family members can be part of the problem. So have awareness there, right? Um, but find some support around that to unpack that if you're not able to get to the root.

Polly Mertens 30:18

Yeah, and the certain you can recognize it. You know, I want to just, you know, this is a confessional today, so here we go again. So here we go. I was telling you that, like last month. So I have this little stash of chocolate in my kitchen, and um, you know, I have maybe a little uh square or two after lunch or at dinner or something like that. And then I noticed like I wasn't even like feeling like it, but it was like, oh, lunch is over, up, have the chocolate, oh, lunch is over, up, have the chocolate. And I I'm too much in this world to in work to not notice a pattern of my own. I was like, oh, hold up, wait a minute. I'm a I'm a hamster right now. This is this is not okay. And so I, you know, I quickly like, you know, aborted that pattern. I was like, nope, no chocolate visits for two weeks. No, none, you know, totally cleared it up. Yesterday I found myself walking in, I was like, it was like day three of chocolate again. I was like, oh hell no.

Samantha Pruitt 31:12

Right.

Polly Mertens 31:12

So just noticing it, like, all right, there's a pattern developing here and and taking a look at it, you know. And the sooner you can examine it and sooner you can address it, right? It doesn't have to become some big glaring, you know, oh, I've gained 40 pounds. Where did this come from? Oh, geez, you know, whatever.

Samantha Pruitt 31:30

Yeah. Mm-hmm. So yeah. Yeah, and we're not, you know, we're not making bad on the behavior, even though many of these behaviors are very damaging, right? In so many ways, shrips, or forms. That's not what this conversation is about. It's about like, do you have awareness of how your body works and how these motivations or lack of motivations to either the pleasure seeking or pain-avoiding motivations are even happening in your physical body? Yeah, yeah. Let's get into the next one before we run out of time. Serotonin. I know that was just dopamine.

Polly Mertens 32:02

Sorry, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, two biggest drivers pain and pleasure, period. Yeah.

Samantha Pruitt 32:08

Serotonin is specifically mood. This is one of my people be moody, dude. Some people be moody. I love serotonin. Uh satiety, so hunger regulation,

Serotonin For Mood And Stability

Samantha Pruitt 32:20

and then social and sleep rhythms. This is some real animal behavior right there, huh?

Polly Mertens 32:26

Well, serotonin is like the bonding drug, like it's what drives you to want to seek and feel bonded with people, right? Remember, I was talking about that gazelle story. So she would say that that uh scientist said the dopamine is what sends the gazelles, they're all in a little herd. Dopamine says, Oh, you know what? Guess we're all on limited food. Um, sends that one gazelle out to risk its life to go get food to keep the species, you know, whatever. Um, and and serotonin says, Oh, that didn't work, get back over here. You know, so serotonin is like, we're we stay with your people. We do, what is it? We thrive better in a herd or something like that. We survive better in a herd. So yeah, it's uh it's definitely and it's social status. I don't know enough about that, but there's some element to it that's about like, you know, not one upness or something, but I have a feeling some of this influencer social media stuff, the likes on whatever, um, social, you know, serotonin's got something in that. My favorite, how I learned about serotonin, probably this is 20 years ago, was um when, especially with the addiction recovery that I, you know, was going through and things like that, is um, and we're specifically talking about natural serotonins, was um having a conversation with a friend. Like go for a hike and have a conversation with a friend, and like serotonin gets produced just by people hiking and talking to each other. It's amazing. You know, like social connection, social connection. So sorry, keep going.

Samantha Pruitt 33:49

But no, no, no, you're good. I mean, um, I talk about emotional fitness, but it's emotional flexibility. You know, when we think about mood, that's your emotional flexibility. What's your stress tolerance? You know, how do you handle when things get intense or hard or sad or you know, happy or whatever? Like, do you have the ability to be flexible and ride those waves, or does it just completely take you out of the game? You know, you get one phone call or one text. I was at work the other day in an environment with a bunch of teammates. There's a lot of stuff going on in the space. So it's, you know, there's some stuff, but this person got a personal text at work. A, that's very disruptive, but anyway, don't get me started. And it derailed their attention span and their emotional regulation for the rest of the day. They became basically unable to actually work because they had a text from one of their partner and whatever, and then they went into this spiral like that. Wow. Right. So this is this serotonin, it helps regulate those things, right? So we don't become so off balance so easily, so triggered. The trigger word, really. This is serotonin's helping you not get triggered by every little thing that comes into your space, you know.

Polly Mertens 35:04

For sure, for sure.

Samantha Pruitt 35:06

Yeah. Um, we did talk about appetite and depress and uh digestion. So that's a big deal.

Polly Mertens 35:12

Well, yeah, and you know, um, one of the things we talked about before we aired is about how 90 to 95 percent of serotonin is actually produced in the gut. So it's part of your digestion. So if you have dysbiosis and dysregulation in your gut, guess what? You know. Um, but it doesn't, you know, and then it's like, oh, does it get into the blood and then go up to the brain? But it's managed totally differently. So it's not like um, you know, I I uh was it Kabor Mate who was saying, oh, he was tying um taking SSRIs, which is like a serotonin and you know, like helps you yeah, if you're low on serotonin or something like that, it helps you. And he's like, there's zero evidence that taking serotonin will cure depression and stuff like that. So it's not just like, oh, get more serotonin in the body and and that cures things. It's like no, there's there's more going on. But um, but I think serotonin is um, I just I you know, it's I loved that that gal's thing is like it's meant to bond. It's like the bonding hormone, it's what keeps us together, keeps community. It's I think what drives us when we feel lonely and isolated to seek out people like you going to the coffee shops and micro moments and stuff like that. I almost think that partly dopamine, but I think also serotonin is on the back end of that.

Samantha Pruitt 36:27

Well, if dopamine is the get up and go. Yeah, get up and go get in your car and get in that heat. Serotonin is the everything's okay. Yes, everything's gonna be okay. Chill the F out, people, settle it down, okay? Keep it real. It's the keep it real hormone.

Polly Mertens 36:47

I just made that shit up. I like that.

Samantha Pruitt 36:50

Yeah, okay. All right, we'll take it. Um, how do you get it? Healthy gut again, healthy gut always. And why is the gut so important? Let's just continue beating the beating this drum here.

Polly Mertens 37:04

Well, it's got your favorites favorite nerve in it, so tell them about that, right?

Samantha Pruitt 37:08

Yeah, the vagus nerve is the communicating. It's I call it the mothership, right? But like she is communicating to the entire body and every single system within the body as to what to do next. I mean, if it stopped working, life is over. So just to be clear, she's pretty damn important. But also, um, I've talked a lot about like having digestive issues and celiacs autoimmune and yada yah. So a lot of my stuff, when I do have health challenges, are related to that gut. I had SIBO last year, right? So, and gut permeability, etc. etc. So these junctions do break down or they can break down environmental toxins, there's lots of reasons, uh, menopause, la la la. So when that happens, those hormones actually are not getting in into the right places either. They can become dysregulated because of your gut dysfunction. So if you're finding like life actually feels pretty good, and I feel like I've got it going on in these other areas, you might look at your gut if you're still having

Gut Health And Serotonin Reality

Samantha Pruitt 38:10

some challenges with these. Because it's highly probable there's something going on in your gut microbiome, or the leakiness of your gut, or the quality of your nutrition and your digestion and your pooping and all these things that are not functioning. Absolutely.

Polly Mertens 38:25

I couldn't have said look at your poop, people actually have a test coming to do it. So I yeah. Oh, look at you testing your poop. How fun is that? Just like that, I know. She was like, Do you want a colonoscopy or poop kit in the mail? I was like, Let's go for the poop kit in the mail.

Samantha Pruitt 38:41

Sounds like a good time. Sign me up.

Polly Mertens 38:44

Okay. No dopamine triggered. None.

Samantha Pruitt 38:48

Nope, none. I got zero over here. Light exposure again. Circadium rhythms in particular are tied to serotonin production and regulation.

Polly Mertens 38:57

Well, and I think light therapy you want to say, like um, like seasonal lack of light, you know, like serotonin needs, like, you know, uh, it reminds me um when I had chickens, so I had chickens for quite a few years. I love them so much. Um, backyard chickens is great, I highly recommend it. Um, one of the things that I found I learned is chickens produce eggs when there's more daylight, right? So like they need sunlight to make an egg, you know. And I'm like, people need sunlight to make serotonin, you know, it's kind of like that's what your body, you know, that helps, you know. So if you're in dark climates and stuff, it's no wonder, you know, you have like a small amount of hours per the day, get out in it, you know, so you can get that.

Samantha Pruitt 39:38

And if you're asleep, if you're not getting deep sleep because your circadian rhythm is off, because of all of these reasons or other reasons, like you decide to stay up and be on the internet or whatever bullshit you think you're doing at night. Like you are just setting yourself up for hormone chaos. Yeah, people, hormone chaos by not sleeping. And I feel really bad for people that have night jobs and all those things. I get it, some people don't have a choice, but man, that's a bummer. So dumb.

Polly Mertens 40:04

How the body regulates during that.

Samantha Pruitt 40:06

I yeah, well, that's a whole nother lot of compensating going on. Um, people and relationships, we did talk about that in human connection, but let's double-click on pets and animals, which is your wheelhouse. Yeah, well, yeah. I just mentioned, you know, I have a little bird thing going on right now with these three nests, all these doves are hatching around my house, and I'm having a good time watching them. But I don't have animals because I have uh allergies to animals, but you tell the story cats, dude.

Polly Mertens 40:33

I think your story of of yesterday watching your bird was like and what you chose for your nightly beverage. I think that story is a perfect arc for like the journey of, you know, share that story, wouldn't you?

Samantha Pruitt 40:47

Yeah, I mean, I have quite a bit of challenging things going on in the external world right now, which sort of been the MO for the last year and a half. But anyway, so um coming from a stressful work environment on a project I'm on where there's a lot of chaos, and then home, we've got some changes in the home environment. So I wanted to come home and just chill the hell out, right? Like get to my home space and just dial down the energy. And but because there's a lot going on in the home space, I was like, I'm I feel like I need to have a cocktail and sit on the patio. It was one of those, like, this is the groove of that dopamine, right? Let's just have a cocktail on the patio. Instead, I chose to get myself a non-alcoholic uh dragon fruit drink, which was lovely, and then sit on the patio and watch the birds because I have these little birds and nests around my different patios, three nests currently, and they're all right now in hatch mode, in sitting mode, in hatch mode, and then there's one's been born already. And it's just so fun and calming to the nervous system, and just so lovely and pleasurable. I mean, I was making all kinds of yummy hormones just sitting there, sipping on this little dragon fruit, non-alcoholic mocktail thingy do-dah, and watching the birds. Yeah, yeah. It was definitely a zen moment.

Polly Mertens 42:10

Well, I think that one of the things they talk about is um nature and awe help us, right? And I think nature can produce awe. I'm not sure computers can produce awe, some can, but whatever. But like being in nature and the awe, because what you were looking at is a little baby bird, like beep, beep, beep, beep, you know, like that kind of moment, right? And that's just like aw, right? So that sends a signal, like we bond with that, right? Like, like it's it, like that baby's experience, life, whatever, the story you're telling yourself about that moment, you know, gets your system out of the dysregulation that you just, you know, you, you know, the story that was going on in your head is like, oh my god, I just this is whatever, you know. And like I look at it almost always as energetic, especially my my addiction. I can totally look back on my addiction. So, what would typically mine would happen is I'd have a shitty day at work, just you know, my energy would just be frazzled. It was kind of like like a scratchy record that just was playing bad music and it was like, ah, right. And I'd be like, gotta go to the grocery store and get food, and then I would just like numb out, right? And so what you're doing is, you know, getting your regulating

Light Sleep People And Pets

Polly Mertens 43:20

your nervous system, your body in a different way, just by like, oh, I'll be at rest and I'll pay attention to that, create some awe in nature, right? And it's a healthy way. That's one of the things we're you know pointing to with pets is like, oh, pet and you know, so one is the dog, pet your cat, people, all yeah, petting the cat, very good for the nervous system, hearing their purring and the touching and stuff like that. It's just like oxytocin bonding. It's a whole cocktail. It's it's its own, you know.

Samantha Pruitt 43:51

I took someone the other day who's really stressed and is having a hard time with some um negative behavioral patterns. Um A dog walk. It wasn't my dog, it was their dog. But I was like, wow, this dog is pretty like ramped up. Might need to walk this dog. Okay. Why don't we go for a walk? So we took the dog and we went walking. And of course, the dog was all you know crazy behavior at first because it had not also had its nervous system regulated. So I had to point that out like, hey, you're not that different from the dog, nothing personal, right? But like sinking, and once the dog calmed down and got happy and all that stuff, that feedback loop between the human and the dog is so powerful and so beautiful. And all of a sudden, the crazy mind, the rumination and stuff that was going on in this person's head was oriented, was turned off, and they were oriented towards the dog and what the dog needed, and the dog's behavior and that unconditional love coming back from an animal to a human. And like, dude, that shit's free. Okay. You just need to adopt a pet.

Polly Mertens 44:54

Yeah.

Samantha Pruitt 44:55

And addictions are very expensive. And behaviors, shopping behaviors, all these things are very, very expensive, right? But for free, you can do these other things. And I know people think maybe we're being crazy, but we're not. This is real shit. Like, this is how it works.

Polly Mertens 45:11

Yeah. Well, you know, there's a reason they call them emotional support animals. Yeah. I mean, they're there, or maybe that's not, I think that's what they call them emotional support animals. But it's like it's a real thing, you know. And there's, you know, people would say, Well, there's no evidence and this and that's scientifically. Well, sorry, you just need to see how people are around their animals, and you're just not paying attention.

Samantha Pruitt 45:32

Well, now there's plenty of evidence because the brain has been studied. Ugh, it's just the coolest shit is going on right now with science and the brain. And especially around things like negative behavior loops or addictions and things like that, because it's rampant, running rampant. And also, we just have a physical and mental health crisis globally, not just in the United States post-pandemic, right? So there's all this new research coming out trying to unravel the shit can of mess that we created with that. But don't get me started on that. Okay, and then nature, last one is nature, nature. And a lot of that is because of that um sensory regulation. So you're going out into nature, and like I was this morning talking about the trail run, like I was like, rocks and trees, and I felt the breeze on my body. Yeah, you know, it was hot as hell, and I felt this really subtle breeze, and I was like, ah, and sometimes I will literally just go outside and stand to like and close my eyes to like feel the breeze, to breathe the air, to understand that I'm part of it all, right? So that's a very like recalibrating, is what I call it, or grounding, some people call it grounding, um, energetic thing to do. Leave the cubicle, go to the outside, find a piece of grass, find a piece of nature, uh, whatever you can do here, people. And if you can't be in a park or something like that, you can close your eyes and you can visualize that and breathe in the fresh air and feel the sun on your skin and still have that experience. Your body will respond to that. It's remarkable. Yeah, there's all kinds of science on this.

Polly Mertens 47:11

Yeah, uh hundred percent, hundred percent. Yeah, I I the only thing I would just say is, you know, um, one of my favorite things. So we talked about the vagus nerve, and one of the my favorite things that I ever learned about the vagus nerve is one of the fastest ways to switch from the fight, fight or flight into rest and digest is like a deep breath, like a sigh, like, ah, and I think about when people like when I put on my shoes and I go out for a walk, like I think I naturally sigh when I get on, like I take the first step off my porch. I'm like, ah, I'm going for a walk, you know, and it's all of those things are putting us into that parasympathetic rest and digest mode versus whatever we're working on and you know, whatever's going on in our life. So it's a way to rebalance, you know, there's times when you have to warrior up and you know, you gotta get after it. And life is very warrioring these days. And you need that wizard shift into the rest and digest where it's like, you know what, everything's gonna be okay, right? Everything's gonna be okay. So yeah, I I think uh, you know, one of the things that I've seen too, um I forget how they describe it, but um vantages and vistas, you know, like when you have a view, there's something in the way that the brain takes in a view. It's like a soft fascination. Um, it's very chalaxing. I mean, it just calms the body down, right? So well, this is so interesting. You probably know the like Miss Wikipedia over here. Yeah.

Samantha Pruitt 48:40

Well, just using a like human example of this. I recently was at REI talking to a guy who just had gotten off the Appalachian Trail, and I'm getting ready to do the John Muir trail. So, of course, we were like obsessed talking about all the things, right? We just find each other. And I was like, Wow, that's freaking awesome! You know, and we have all these people from the PCT coming into the store right now because the PCT runs right through where I live. So he was, I said, How was it? And he

Nature Awe Views And Nervous System

Samantha Pruitt 49:10

said, Actually, I'm really depressed. And I was like, What do you mean? Like, he just finished this epic five-month journey, you know, and he's like, I've never been so depressed, I will never do anything like that again. I was like, What? And of course, I'm coach, I'm like, okay, I need to have we got to download this. Get up in there, we gotta get up in there. Yeah, we gotta sort this out. Like, what's going on? So, anyway, we had long conversation, and of course, at the end, he's ready to do the PCT now. But in the middle of all that conversation was um, and what I shared with him, so he felt what was very depressing is it was cold and wet. Of course, that is the Appalachian Trail. It's cold and wet.

Polly Mertens 49:48

And he did it. What months? Hello, like what are you doing it the last five minutes?

Samantha Pruitt 49:52

But it's always pretty yeah, dark, it's dark and rooted and whatever. But the darkness and the tree canopy, and there's hardly any views. You hike for days to get to one view if the weather's good. Yeah, and I was like, no, bro, no, no, that's what I'm doing. The John Muir, the whole thing literally is like every time you walk around a corner, you literally are like 10 more lakes, an epic thing. Like the views are off the hook. I don't know if I'll be able to come back. I might literally just drop into the abyss out there, and it's also, and that's why I'm drawn to do that trail. Yeah, and then also it's one of the reasons I where I live, right? I'm surrounded by desert mountains that are very extreme and magnificent, and the sky in the desert is remarkable. And like the views, and I always have a view from anywhere that I'm at, driving my car, in my house, out the window, on the trail, whatever, like everywhere I go, I'm surrounded by views. Yeah. And there is no doubt, like it literally, the amount of nervous system regulation I am gifted by the fact that I have views, or that people can go to the ocean or whatever they want to do. Um that is again free, absolutely gold in your pocket for you. If you pay attention to like a well, you do have to look up.

Polly Mertens 51:17

Well, allow it to, you know, resound and rejoice and like be taken the awe, you know. I you know, I remember growing up in the south, and the first time I saw a hill was when I was like 14 years old. Like I'd never seen a hill. It was like, you know, you're just always down here at street level and stuff like that. So your mountains in the beautiful Coachella Valley Desert are then they're everywhere. And you're just like, oh, that's a fucking oh my god, that's amazing. Oh my god, where is that? I want to go hike that, you know, it's just nonstop around where you live. So yeah, yeah. And you could take it in with a park or trees or you know, whatever. But views are where it's at, dude. Where it's at.

Samantha Pruitt 51:55

If you want to get high, get high. Just saying. Just you know, I'm get up a mountain. Damn bumper sticker for sure. I don't care how big the mountain or the hill is, get up it. All right, we better wrap this party up.

Polly Mertens 52:12

So what's our what's our so is there anything we want to say for about perimenopause or menopause? Or did you say it? I know you talked about like the gut and stuff like that.

Samantha Pruitt 52:19

So you mean how much it sucks? What'd you say? Sorry.

Polly Mertens 52:23

We're just talking menobelly with something.

Samantha Pruitt 52:25

No, darling, that's another show altogether, but um, yeah, that's just different hormones that are yeah, yeah, but it's all part of the you know, we're we're a biochemical mix of just it's it's gonna be, yeah.

Polly Mertens 52:42

Like you know, if you have dips. And so I'm going in because you're getting testosterone, and I'm gonna go check out the testosterone world to see, you know, because I'm like, you know, I got these physical symptoms, physics, you know, but yeah, big guns, big guns. So all right, what's your one takeaway? What do you want?

Samantha Pruitt 52:58

What do you want people to for me to land the plane? It's like happiness is not a drug to be pursuing, it's not a drug to be taking or pursuing, right? Like feeling joy in your life requires action, okay, and the right choices that drive the actions. So through right choices that drive the actions, you will find joy, and it's foundational stuff. That is it. Call me if you need the details. That is the cliff notes of it.

Polly Mertens 53:35

Joy is a verb, not an out of now. It's an action verb, right?

Samantha Pruitt 53:40

Yeah.

Polly Mertens 53:40

Um, I would say we didn't go into it too much. I thought earlier we we might, but touching upon what you're saying, I guess the bridge I'll make is like, you know, pursuing the things, the addictive things that are triggering these, you know, innate chemicals, right, is pleasure like junk food, right? Like it's not nourishing you. So seek true nourishment, and then you

Final Takeaways On Joy

Polly Mertens 54:05

will have, I think, well-being, right? So like nervous system regulation, well-being, being at a state of peace comes from real nourishment of you know, a body in motion, well-rested, well fed, in community, things like that, whatever that looks like. So seek that long-term nourishment, not the short-term fast food um hits and and you know, kicks that you get off of you know, these short-lived hamster wheel experiences. So that's my takeaway. So, all right, well, let's wrap this up. What do you want to say before we I love it, I like it.

Samantha Pruitt 54:40

How your life feels, people, is more important than how it looks. Yes, and every day is your opportunity to find your awesome. See you next week.